Sea Breeze

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Posts by Sea Breeze

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  129

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

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  Sea Breeze

  The point that I am (continually) making is that we should judge god by his actions.

  @TonusOH - And, it is the premise behind this proposition that seems so puzzling to others. You rightly use the little "g" when describing the god you imagine. That is a different God than the one you argue about with others. It is your delusional premise that you refuse to let go of that drives your arguments. Like the Watchtower, you use a definition other than the one commonly accepted in a dictionary when it suits you. Are you trying to improve the overall moral character of your rebellion against God?
  
  Anyway, when we are all using the same definition, your argument immediately falls apart. William Lane Craig explains:

  Given the dizzying complexity of life, we are simply in no position at all to judge that God has no good reason for permitting some instance of suffering to afflict our lives. Every event that occurs sends a ripple effect through history, such that God’s reason for permitting it might not emerge until centuries later and perhaps in another country. Only an all-knowing God could grasp the complexities of directing a world of free people toward his envisioned goals.

  Just think of the innumerable, incalculable events involved in arriving at a single historical event, say, the Allied victory at D-day! We have no idea of what suffering might be involved in order for God to achieve some intended purpose through the freely chosen actions of human persons. Nor should we expect to discern God’s reasons for permitting suffering. It’s hardly surprising that much suffering seems pointless and unnecessary to us, for we are overwhelmed by such complexity.

  This is not to appeal to mystery but rather to point to our inherent limitations, which make it impossible for us to say, when confronted with some example of suffering, that God probably has no good reason for permitting it to occur. Unbelievers themselves recognize these limitations in other contexts…Some short-term good might actually lead to untold misery, while some action that looks disastrous in the short term may bring about the greatest good. We don’t have a clue.

  - William Lane Craig
• 
  129

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

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  Sea Breeze

  I've yet to read a scripture where heaven is described as anything similar to suffering.

  Halcon,

  TonusOH has aquired what the bible describes as a reprobate mind. It is a mind that no longer functions as intended. No matter what is offered by God to eliminate suffering, no matter how free it is, no matter how simple it is, the reprobate mind will ALWAYS miss the point.
  
  A world where it pain and suffering is eliminated is exactly what God is offering. But, TonusOH claims to want an existence where suffering is impossible, regardless of our choices.
  
  Soem people are born without the ability to feel pain.

  Irt is a miserable exisstence. Yet, this is TonusOH brilliant idea for the solution to evil, pain & suffering.
  
  Ignorant childish dreams.
• 
  129

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

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  Sea Breeze

  I think the problem is that people are revealed by their words and actions. If we assume that these descriptions of total depravity in people are true, we are left with a God who showed incredible patience, love and forbearance in order for some to be saved, although his desire is for all to be saved.

  People state they only want good outcomes, but a very large number of people are willing to suffer endlessly in order to avoid God. What does this tell us about people? If we accept every premise about the nature of man's inability to live with God, much less love him, we are obviously left with a universe where suffering is understandably far more common than happiness.

  What does this tell us about the being who created the universe and everything in it? It tells us that while we were all sinners and deserving only of death and eternal separation from God, He so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

  Halcon is right. It is an amazing opportunity to even have the option to choose.
• 
  129

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

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  Sea Breeze

  TonusOH,
  
  Freedom has always been available to everyone, through faith. The real underlying problem isn't that we don't believe God. The problem is that we can't believe God.

  Romans 11:32 - For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. (c.f. Galatians 3:22)

  Romans 3:9-12 - What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

  Mark 7:21-23 - “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” (c.f. Matthew 15:19)

  Psalm 5:9 - For there is no truth in their mouth; their inmost self is destruction; their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.

  People get comfortable in their prison cell. They decorate it, hang a few pictures on the wall, keep the toilet clean and convince themselves that they have a better life than other prisoners who are not as diligent and creative as they are. Their comfortable myoptic life prevents them from asking for the gift of faith - Faith in a man who demonstrated his total power over all things by resurrecting himself from the dead.
  
  Jesus came to save us from ourselves, because he loves us.

  

  "You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire.

  Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see. I correct and discipline everyone I love. So be diligent and turn from your indifference". - Jesus
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  129

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

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  Sea Breeze

  when did Jesus (your God) suffer?

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqzlmU6kWGI&ab_channel=OutFocussed

  “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.”
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  21

  What's a Good Question to Ask at the Door?

  by NotFormer in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the jws haven't been to my door for a while, but i don't doubt that they'll turn up eventually*.

  (i saw easter eggs in the supermarket yesterday, so "memorial" season is fast approaching 🙄).

  what's a good question to ask, to get the ball rolling?.

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  Sea Breeze

  When you reject the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" that Jesus offered in Mt. 26: 27-28, do you ever wonder if Satan led your church to do this?
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  129

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

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• 

  Sea Breeze

  Why allow the just to suffer at all?

  It's a good question that many good books have been written about. But, one thing is for sure; It's not like God is asking us to do something he wasn't willing to do.
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  129

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

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  Sea Breeze

  Yall are making this more complicated than it is. God desires the one thing that he cannot create, the one thing that identifies most with his dominate character - Love. That is the sole reason for our existence. And, you cannot force someone to love you.
  

  God's requirement for entry into his family is to be without sin. He is the creator and owns it all, so he gets to set the terms. For the sole purpose of creating the possibility of love, God took on flesh and died a horrible death vicariously for everyone who ever lived, everyone who wants it. Lots of people only want to enjoy all the cool stuff God made, kinda like a spoiled brat who doesn't want to work but just relax on Daddy's yacht. They like daddy's money, but don't really want him around cramping their lifestyle.
  
  God still gives them lots of good stuff while they enjoy everything he made.... mountians, oceans, forests, friends, children, puppies, art etc. When they inevitably die because of being separated from the sole Source of Life in the universe, he still grants them what they desire most, eternal freedom from himself.

  Those that allow God to supernaturally make them sinless, get to enjoy the most precious thing they could possibly imagine - the person, character, majesty and creative genius of God himself. For the believer, God is by far the greatest gift of all. When you get him, you get literally everything imaginable.
  
  In the end, everybody gets what they want. Why is this so difficult for people to understand?
• 
  129

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

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  2. 
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• 

  Sea Breeze

  Satan is the ruler of the world, all kingdoms are under his power etc.

  
  The watchtower repeats this over and over ad infinitum. This was true before the cross and resurrection, but hasn't been true for nearly 2000 years now.
  

  
  Agree with most everthing you wrote moomanchu. But...
  
  After Jesus resurrected himself from the dead (which was simply awesome) he declared that he has all authority in heaven and earth. Jesus is just waiting for the gentile times to run out to sit on his personal throne in Jerusalem. Meanwhile, governments and kingdoms are described as "ministers" by the apostles.
  

  Romans 13 begins:

  Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.....

  For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

  (Rom. 13:1–2, 4).

  
  Viewing governments as agents for Satan had a very damaging effect on me as a young teenager. In the wake of 1975, I viewed the WT leaders as idiots but still believed the theology. Had I believed that Jesus was in control, I believe I would have had more respect for authority and could have avoided some serious mistakes.
  
  I carried that lie around with me for decades until I eventually joined a bible believing church and got it straightened out.
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  129

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

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  Sea Breeze

  We get old and die because we are disconnected from God, the Source of all life, because of sin. The "right to rule" explanation is a subterfuge meant to provide an alternate explanation of Jesus' sacrificial death. It is an attempt to eradicate the doctrine of substitutional atonement.

  Jesus Christ died in our place when He was crucified on the cross. We deserved to be the ones placed on that cross to die because we are the ones who live sinful lives. But Christ took the punishment on Himself in our place—He substituted Himself for us and took what we rightly deserved. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

  The believer and Jesus substitute for each other.
  
  “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

  Here again we see that Christ took the sins we committed onto Himself to pay the price for us. A few verses later we read, “For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit” (1 Peter 3:18).

  Not only do these verses teach us about the substitute that Christ was for us, but they also teach that He was the atonement, meaning He satisfied the payment due for the sinfulness of each of Adam's children. .